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A Fat Rant... of sorts

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:13 PM


So, I rarely look at DDs anymore, for several reasons... but often one of them on the bottom of a page catches my eye and makes me click it. Today this happened to be a nude shot of a nice, plump bubble butt. After admiring the image for a while I wanted to leave a comment with my likes and dislikes of the composition... and then I made the mistake of reading the comments. :|

Outdoor 30 by Zone-studio

It's really sad to see that DDs like this turn into discussions of what is beautiful and what kind of women are deemed 'real' or 'ideal'. Those who claim they just want everyone to be treated equally are those who throw around the word 'real women' or 'real bodies' the most. As if skinny women weren't real, just a figment of our imagination, nothing more to them. But no, skinny women don't have a right to be offended, only us fatties do.

Yes, the woman on the image has a disproportionately large behind which is emphasized by the camera angle. No, she did not need everyone to jump up and defend her or proclaim how grateful they were that finally a 'real woman' was featured on a photo like this, completely forgetting that we are looking at art here.
If you want to stop the trend of so-called body-shaming, if you want women of ALL (yes, all, as in every single one, INCLUDING the skinny ones) shapes and sizes to feel accepted, maybe you should stop talking about freaking body sizes. If you want the size and shape to not matter, stop putting so much emphasis on it, stop calling skinny women out as not real or unrealistic. They exist, they are out there! Not all of them starve themselves to death and many of them have just as many body issues as the heavier ones.
Open your eyes and shut your mouth once in a while.

And all the while everyone forgets that this is an artwork posted by the artist that we are commenting on. How about giving some feedback on the art, not the model's body shape.

There, that's all. :|


Tardis skin created by MyntKat. Allons-y!
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:iconwdwparksgal:
WDWParksGal Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
:nod:
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:iconroxyguitarz:
Roxyguitarz Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012   General Artist
I agree. I always wonder, when people say "there's a real woman" at the sight of a bigger gal. I'm a big girl sure, but aren't women of all shapes and sizes "real" women? Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same anyway?

Working in a clothing store, I see women, no matter what their physique, dealing with their own body issues. And men, too, really.

That aside, I feel for the artists, who have to read those kinds of comments, instead of the relevent ones that pertain to their artwork.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Yeah, it reminds me a bit of reverse racism (black people shunning ALL white people because we are all racist, apparently) and reverse sexism (women claiming ALL men are evil and don't deserve blablabla). If we're fighting for equality here, WE have to treat everyone equal first. Become the change you want to see.

I know plenty of gorgeous women, from skinny to curvy, who all have body issues. Some more, some less, but all do, sadly.
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:iconphoenixleo:
phoenixleo Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012
Yep.
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:iconpica-ae:
pica-ae Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
:clap: well said
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
:bow:
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:iconalexandrasalas:
alexandrasalas Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
Couldn't agree more with you.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
:)
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:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Professional General Artist
Even Anorexic Women are "Real Women" they just have an illness as well sadly.

I was very very thin right through high school (I grew upwards not outwards) and I got a lot of people commenting about how I was "too thin" and "I should eat more" and I was always thinking you don't know me, you don't know what I eat. It made me feel aweful and I hated wearing shorts and such for fear someone thought I was ill and anorexic thanks to all the comments I got. And to think so many women strive to be that size and all I wanted was to be fatter, but the more I ate the more I grew, now I'm 6 foot. XD (wouldn't trade an inch of it)

So long as a woman is not making herself ill with her eating habits, either by not eating or by over eating to excess there is no reason to comment on a woman's weight. And if someone did have a problem do you really think airing it out on the comments of a photo she is in is the right way to go about getting her some help?

I think some people just like being offended.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
:love:

People seem to LOVE being offended on the internet. Especially by stuff that's not even directed at them. :B
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:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Professional General Artist
I know. And because every opinion is right in a way someone will always be offended at what you believe is the 'right' opinion.

Like take comic book women.
I am actually fairly OK with comic book women all being hippy and busty. Hell the main market is teenage boys, comic books are practically porn to some of them. In the same way all fashion models seem to be the same body type and all actresses seem to be too.

I am not OK with purposefully breaking anatomy in order to create an unrealistic representation of women. Such as the broken spine boob and butt shots. Or photoshoping fashion models to look thinner (removing skin blemishes.. eh ok).

But in the photograph you showed, and a lot of photos of thinner women on dA, there has been marginal photoshoping and not of the make her thinner variety. That's the way that woman is. She can be sexy, prudish, nude, in regular clothes, fashion, a dress, topless, bottomless, etc, and I'm OK with that. Same with a larger women or a trans woman or a man looking just the way he is too.

Some people just want to be offended that teenage boys have hormones and like sexy women. And undeniably, Marvel/DC is mainly aimed at Teenage Boys. There is a problem with their Art, but to get offended at all of it ever is tiring. Better to lead by example and make my own comic the way I like the world to be than sit around stewing in my own offense on the internet.

That and when Sexy Women stop selling comics, or handbags or perfumes or movies, there will not be sexy Women in them. Capitalism and all that. Vote with your money too.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Yes! Yes top all of that!

On a similar note, look at comic book heroes, most comic book hero male characters have the same body type as well, they are muscle laden with small hips and broad shoulders. No one is complaining about that, about how unrealistic most of their proportions are. They're comics, they aren't MEANT to me real. They're an escape mechanism and yes, the characters therein aren't supposed to mirror reality.

Like you said, excessive photoshopping in everyday media is something to be offended over, but please get offended at the photoshopping, NOT at the people being photoshopped.
Reply
:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Professional General Artist
I do see a lot more variety amoung the male characters than the females. And I think it would be amazing to see more variety of strong women. But at the same time comic books in general are unrealistic. I am a woman, I read comic books, and I have a perfectly healthy body image of myself.

Sometimes I feel offended by people who are always talking about how this image or that image could damage young girls (and it could) but at the same time it makes it sound like all teenage girls are just waiting to become anorexic or get a boob job the minute they see Rogue from X Men or a Fashion Model.

That's not to say some girls aren't, but that quite a lot of girls ARE doing OK too.

The increased presence of women publishing and creating comics helps too, because tbh as a woman the storylines and characters being a little male orientated doesn't attract me to the media, but now there are a larger range of stories coming out in the comics world I'm getting sucked in more and more. I don't think decreasing the size of Black Widows boobs would make me want to read superhero comics tbh. There's a lot more 'wrong' with them on an equality scale than booby women.

That and a lot of girls I know who complain about women in comic books are huge fans of Starfighter, Teahouse and other Yaoi comics, which sexualise and objectify men with a target audience of Women. And while this market doesn't quite have the volume of sales and fans as Marvel/DC/Darkstar etc, it's only growing and growing with the increase of Women interested in comics (yay). So to remove the 'porn' and sexualisation of Marvel and DC I think we first have to remove sex from society and that would mean certain doom for the human race XD
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
I don't think comics damage young girls even a fraction as much as regular main stream media. Comics are not real, we all know that, we see it. But a 'photo' (and I use this term loosely) of a flawless person, photoshopped beyond human reality, can damage youngsters, girls AND boys. The beauty standards that are being pushed are so far from reality and many teenagers do not know this. They are shocked when they see unphotoshopped versions of their favorite stars. And it's creeping into the male lifestyle as much as is has been part of the female one for a long time.
I have no problem with comic book heroins with large breasts and super tight bodies, if it's not ridiculously disproportionate, it can look amazingly sexy while still knowing this is an unreasonable representation. The larger problem is the general media that doesn't show what people actually look like anymore (by photoshopping too much) and I think this is what confuses people into using the term 'real women'.

Women are pushing their way into a lot of media outlets and it can be fantastic or horrible, depending on the individual outlook of the women involved (some women have a hard time seeing other females as anything but rivals to be squashed) but it definitely gives more variety and I do think we are on a good path. I have seen more diverse women featured in movies and on tv, though of course the cookie cutter figure still has the majority, different body types are working their way in there surreptitiously. :D

Sex will always sell, always has and always will and beauty standards are as changeable as fashion. I hope we can work towards a realistic, all inclusive beauty standard that encompasses naturally skinny and naturally chubby women as well as everything in between. :D
And while sex sells for men, insecurities sell for women. The whole cosmetic industry works on the premise that women on their own are not enough and that they need these products to be real, beautiful women. So that's how they advertise. They do not want women to feel fantastic WITHOUT their products, they'd stop buying them!

I find a lot of the problems that are being highlighted with how women are portrayed in the media do not stem from their bodies, but from the way they are shown. The ways women are shown to think, to behave, to feel, it's still not very balanced or equal, there are few strong female characters with reasonable flaws. There ARE more than there used to be and I think the trend is towards more of them, so at least that's a good sign.
I do hope for a great representation of female characters that are not just victims, perpetual bitches, ruthless powerhouses or the like! 'Chick flicks' that do not just set the main character up to find her dream man and be happy for the rest of her life just through finding him. Strong female characters in movies that do not just talk about men but have actual opinions, goals, dreams. Ah, that would be the life. ;)

I think I am rambling by now, but it feels good to let this all out! :giggle:
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:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Professional General Artist
It's very difficult to say where I stand on feminist issues, because for all the reasons you pointed out Society still demeans women as objects of beauty.

Yes we can now be on the board of a Fortune 500 company but we should still look like a bombshell doing it, or so says the message. But mr jowls and had a few too many beers after work can just throw on a suit and do his job just as well.

Having said that in recent years there are so many more Male 'beauty' products on the market telling men they're not good enough either, so it's not a wholely Female issue.

It is a reflection of society for a whole. My mother will say something about how all women should be equal but ugh didn't Emma Watson wear a terrible dress at that premiere on Wednesday.

My sister for example is of the chick flick variety of girls, and her boyfriend insists on paying for everything even though he's poor as he's a student, and she works so has money. However she's happy and he's happy. So what if they fit into the more normal relationship field. I don't think he's offering to pay from some malicious need to have power over my sister, I think it's that 'old fashioned romance' which is as drilled into boys as it is to girls. I personally wouldn't want it, but I'm not dating him. (Apparently I scared my ex bf into never wanting to offer for sake of biting his head off.. part of the reason he's an ex. I don't always want to split the bill, sometimes it's nice if they pay or you pay, equal... logical. He obv couldn't cope with me XD)

It's the same as your thin shaming. Girls who WANT a traditional relationship, white wedding, SAHM and 2.4 kids are often shamed for being anti feminist. But isn't the point of feminism or equalism meaning that you can be what you want to be, even if what you want is a stay at home mother, cooking, baking and cleaning?
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Exaaaactly!
My mom was involved with some feminist movements back in the day but when she got married and decided to be a stay at home mom for her kid's sake, she got so much negative feedback that she turned her back on them. So, feminism didn't mean equality to them, it meant that women should now behave like men and men like women. Which is ridiculous. Some women love being stay at home moms, nothing wrong with that. Some women hate it. Nothing wrong with that either.

With my boyfriend it's easy, we live together, we regard our income as OURS, no matter who earns it, so it doesn't bloody well matter who pays the bill. :D Before we moved in together I paid most bills because I had more money. :lol: (mainly because he likes to drink and booze is expensive and me never drinking saved me a lot of money)

I guess in the end it's just an issue of tolerance, acceptance and individuality and not forgetting that fighting FOR a cause does not mean that you have to fight AGAINST anything.
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(1 Reply)
:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:thumbsup:

Hence why I avoid looking at the comments on photos with women in them (any photo) because I inevitably bump into the "FINALLY A REAL WOMAN!!" comments and of course the "SO MUCH MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN SKINNY WOMEN!" and that makes me kinda hate the skinny body I'm normally pretty pleased with... and I don't need that. If my body could be changed, it would have been by now, so there isn't much point in reading comments that are gonna make me hate something that's functionally sound.

Finally... after a trip to Italy (and the amazing art in their churches! With fat, skinny, or in-between naked women) I now find these comments laughable. We've lost track of art in our search for "real" and "ideal".
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Yush! I understand why it happens, if you look at the mainstream media, there are women of just one body type and that's not healthy for our society. But to direct your anger at this towards those women is just totally and utterly wrong (and stupid on so many levels).
I wish those who cry for acceptance of all body types would start accepting all body types so they can actually get to work on achieving their goal for society.
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
To say I see much mainstream media would be a lie, since I mostly see things via dA, but my impression of what people seem to mostly want is tiny skinny women with unrealistic boobs and butts. Now, in my experience, this really is rare... but I never felt pressured by them, because (to me anyway) the media isn't supposed to portray what's real and the norm, it's understood that it portrays a fashionable perfection. I mean, every woman has pimples and bad hair days, but would we expect to see that on the media? Yet I don't see people calling out for the realness of pimples. :P
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
But the truth is that the majority does not want the extremely skinny and tiny. Every study into majority taste shows that men like slender women with curves, not too much and not too little. Of course that's just the median really, tastes run the gamut!
Over there in the UK the mainstream media is by no means as harsh and invasive as here in North America though, you guys have relatively normal looking people on TV on magazine covers. Over here, if you don't look like an underwear model, you're non-existent in the media. (Of course there are exceptions, I'm just painting a picture here)
I think that's one of the reasons British TV series are getting really popular over here, they feature more normal (and in this case I mean people who are not make-up-caked, stylized and photoshopped!) looking people. :D
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh yes, as I said, I don't think for a moment that people actually want women who are sticks with ridiculous curves. It's just what the media has (at some point anyway) liked in the women it puts on the screens and in photos.

I couldn't tell you about British TV, for the most, what I've seen features people with accents I really dislike, and the stories seem to involve a lot of bitching and crying, so I'm not into them. :XD:

That said, one thing that really annoys me over here is their display models - how do you call those mannequins things? They're so stick-like that the clothes have to be pinned to fit on them. :stare: What's with that.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
One thing you have to remember is that fashion is in a large part made by men who prefer men, so of course they would choose more boyish figures in women to display their clothes. Clothes also often look better on a thinner person because the drape of the fabric is nicer when there's a little more room. I think a large part of society has mistaken what fashion wants for what society wants. :D
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
That's so true. :XD:

Although sewing for flat people has its own challenges. All the people that have sewn for me (including myself) have learnt not to add in the tucks and darts that are normally expected when making a skirt or blouse. :lol: And it's not even as if I'm that flat. :noes:
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
and I'm the dreaded hourglass that needs extra tucks and darts! :lol:
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(1 Reply)
:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Student General Artist
Ah, douchebags. Gotta love 'em. :sarcasm:

Hey, did you know that 300 years ago or so, that woman would be the ideal body type exemplified by great painters such as Rubens? Maybe people should just study their art history. :P

And anyway, body type ain't such a big deal. It's when bodies are portrayed unrealistically (ie: skinny women with back-breakingly large boobs), that I get annoyed.
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:icondrinkteaordie:
DrinkTeaOrDie Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012  Professional Filmographer
Thin women with naturally large breasts exist too, for the record. But I agree it is portrayed unrealistically too often in comic books and dang vidgea games and the like. In fact I don't have any plans to get into the comic book world [as consumer or employee] because of this.
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:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 10, 2012  Student General Artist
Naturally large I'm cool with. I said "back-breakingly large", meaning large enough to actually cause back problems.

This sort of thing is why as of right now I'm strictly on the indie end of things as far as comics go. I might work mainstream eventually, but it would have to be on my terms (meaning that I'd have to be able to draw a variety of body types, rather than a single "industry standard").
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:icondrinkteaordie:
DrinkTeaOrDie Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Professional Filmographer
Well natural breasts can and do cause back problems. However I understand what you're saying and agree.

Haha, well if it's on my terms I'd definitely work in the comic industry, but for now indie comics might be the way to go. :)
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:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 11, 2012  Student General Artist
Booyah.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Skinny women with large boobs exist. They are fake boobs, but large. I've seen plenty of them run around in the real world. They are humans with feelings as well. :)
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:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Student General Artist
Yes, but must EVERY female comic/video game character out there be portrayed the exact same way? Obviously I'm not offended by the fact that this type exists. I'm offended by the notion that it's the only "acceptable" type that exists.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
No one is stopping you from creating your own character with different proportions. :D What bugs me is the label of 'unrealistic' on people that obviously exist in the effort to make different looks acceptable. If people want "all shapes and sizes" to be acceptable, they have to accept ALL shapes and sizes first. So decrying something as unrealistic that does (in very small amounts, admittedly) exist doesn't really help the cause, it hinders it and makes those people look like bitter bitches.
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:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Student General Artist
Trust me, I've got the different proportions covered. ;)

But yeah, I wish size diversity was less of a big deal, especially in fashion and in drawn forms of art. It would make including a variety of women in a work as seamless as well, including a variety of men in a given work! :D
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:icondekoradum:
dekorAdum Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Do you think that the community ever gonna change? They bitch about everything and everywhere.
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Things change, and quite quickly, actually.

Attitudes to body shapes/sizes, HIV/AIDS, contraception, women working, internet friendships, and so on - these things have all changed enormously in the past few years.
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:icondekoradum:
dekorAdum Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Unfortunately I'm not that optimistic, but hey, it's just me.
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm a bit confused by that, since I didn't really state things I hope will happen in the future, but things that have happened in the past two decades. You say you've been on dA for half a decade already - does that really compare so little that you think I'm picking an unrealistic timeframe? :confused:
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:icondekoradum:
dekorAdum Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Of course some things happened and sure, the community's opinion will get better on certain things, now now what I see is it's not in the near future.
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:iconexillior:
Exillior Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
That's your opinion, and there is no need to call substantial facts optimistic thinking just because you choose to be pessimistic despite evidence against your views.

The fact remains that people's attitudes shift hugely over short periods of time, and I've listed examples to prove this.

Change is driven by people, if we all sat back and decided nothing would ever change, then absolutely, I agree, nothing would change. We'd all still be bacteria in the primordial soup, or something.

You know, fifteen years ago the internet didn't even really exist. You've been here five years, so that's only twice that time again. I bet you anything that five years before the internet happened, nobody in the mainstream community thought it would ever happen. People talking to each other from across the world, in real time?? Wishful drivel.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
And that means I can't rant about people's stupidity?
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:icondekoradum:
dekorAdum Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
That's not what I meant. Of course you can, but you know that they will never change.
They have these standards of things and whenever they see something what is different from their point of view, they freak out.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I tired to write.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
How do you know that they will never change? Because it's always been like this? Because three thousand years ago everything was exactly like today because nothing ever changes?
I understood perfectly well what you said, I just inherently disagree with such a meek and defeatist statement. I will stand up for my beliefs whether people like it or not and if enough people do it, things WILL change. It's happened before, it's happening now, it will happen again. Change is always possible with the right attitude. :)
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:icondekoradum:
dekorAdum Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
I saw a lot of bitching about daily deviations, site changes and such. I rarely see any positive thing these days. Not like that I'm a member since the beginning of dA, but I've been here for 5 years now.
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
My rant was not about complaints in general, yes, they'll always be there. My rant was more specific and specifics can always change.
(I've been on dA for close to 7 years, btw)
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:iconbrookette:
Brookette Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
:highfive:
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:iconmyntkat:
MyntKat Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2012  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
:hug:
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